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Clevelands Sad Truth
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Topic: Clevelands Sad Truth (Read 749 times)
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twisted
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Clevelands Sad Truth
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on:
April 11, 2008, 04:09:34 PM »
Indians fans just know is that Shapiro and Wedge have a preference for veteran role players rather over young players, almost irrespective of pedigree. To an outsider, this may seem like a ridiculous proposition and for proof they'll point to center fielder Grady Sizemore and even second baseman Asdrubal Cabrera. You can argue this one all day if you want, but Indians fans would tell you and they'd be right that both Sizemore and Cabrera were reluctant additions that have worked out.
The kinds of players Shapiro and Wedge are more comfortable with are Jason Michaels, David Dellucci. At this point, most fans can no longer distinguish between Michaels and Dellucci. Michaels is the one with the lifetime .277 average, Dellucci is the one with the .260 average. Both are what might be termed "nice" players, but are not anything special nor will they be capable of random good play. The kind of player that tends to fill out a major league roster, but having both of them is not exactly a luxury. It is more a problem.
Watching Wedge put both in the lineup recently is the typical Wedge being Wedge. Rather than watch a young player like Franklin Gutierrez struggle Wedge apparently prefers watching established patchiness do the same thing. Maybe they are good in the clubhouse. At least fans were fed that excuse when it came to Aaron Boone and Trot Nixon.
Another place this kind of veteran over youth thinking is playing itself out is in the Tribe's fourth starter, Paul Byrd. Whether either Shapiro or Wedge want to admit it publicly, the fans know that Byrd is pretty much done. He can still get hitters out for the most part and will still give the team a bunch of innings, but what is really the point?
Byrd was 15-8 last season, which is somewhat like Borowski getting 45 saves, so the case for not using Byrd isn't easily made on the surface. But just as there are always those pitchers that never seem to get run support, Byrd was one of those pitchers that always seemed to throw on the days the Tribe's offense came alive. His 4.38 ERA last season was not particularly impressive so something else must have gone right.
What the fans really know about the Byrd situation, indeed the whole veteran presence thing that Shapiro likes to tout, is that this is a budget issue. If there is one thing Shapiro has specialized in since he became general manager, it is taking a flyer on some other team's previously injured castoffs. They cost less than premier free agents and thus the risk/reward equation is tilted much more favorably toward the Indians. This is fine, for as far as it goes, but when the roster starts filling up with these kinds of players at the expense of developing the prospects the team otherwise highly touts, it gets a tad frustrating to the average fan.
But for all Indians fans there is only one question they're really interested in having answered and that is when, if ever, the skies will clear, the seas will part, and they'll get their World Series pennant. It is never easily answered, of course, but a good start will certainly come when the Indians stop living up to the sad truth that is not so much setting them free as holding them back.
-twisted-
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Last Edit: April 11, 2008, 04:12:47 PM by twisted
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tribemuck
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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April 11, 2008, 04:50:15 PM »
Listen, I hate the Dellucci/Michaels platoon in left just as much as anyone and I want to see Ben Francisco as well. And yes, Paul Byrd's struggles lately do concern me.
But, I still say Shapiro and Wedge do more to promote young talent within their organization than a lot of other teams do. Most of the Indians current lineup is either homegrown talent or guys they picked up when they were rather young and have risen to prominence while with the Tribe.
If they didn't care about younger talent, we'd have an overpaid and underachieving lineup just like the Tigers and both New York teams.
I could argue that their focus on keeping younger talent has hampered them from acquiring premier veteran talent who could contribute on the field as well as the clubhouse. Shapiro has said numerous times that he'd tried to bring some big name talent in, but wasn't willing to part with any of the Tribe's "future stars".
And I'm sure money is also an issue as well. I think thats the main reason they're doing the whole LF platoon, is to get some return on their investment in those guys. Even though, we need Francisco here now!
As for the Byrd thing, lets see how it plays out. Hopefully, it won't be disastrous for the Tribe. Lets hope he either bounces back or we can get Jeremy Sowers to take his place if need be and have him step up and become the good young pitcher he can be.
I'm disappointed with their start, just as much as everyone else, but its still far too early to hit the panic button and right now, no team seems to be pulling away from the pack just yet.
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Ohio_Fireman
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #2 on:
April 11, 2008, 04:54:12 PM »
I second that motion tribemuck!
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DO NOT POST ANYTHING THAT SOWERS DISAGREES WITH OR HE WILL DELETE YOUR POST AND YOUR THREAD. YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO POST HAPPY THOUGHTS AND HOLD HIS HAND WHILE YOU ARE DOING IT.
IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT YOU THINK, ONLY MATTERS WHAT HE THINKS!
twisted
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #3 on:
April 11, 2008, 04:57:29 PM »
I wasn't say that it is completely terrible. Just the point that sometimes the youngsters we have don't get the chances.
I think Marte should get more time, Blake into the OF would work. I don't think Francisco is ready right now. Anyone check out his stats before complaining for him? .154 AVG 4 Hits 26 AB all four hits are singles... He isn't really tearing it up yet.
And Shapiro is a great GM he has gotten young talents! Him and Wedge just don't know when to part with the Vets and sometimes it hurts us!
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tribemuck
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #4 on:
April 11, 2008, 05:18:31 PM »
Quote from: twisted on April 11, 2008, 04:57:29 PM
I think Marte should get more time, Blake into the OF would work........
The Blake/Marte switch could be interesting, although I was really unimpressed with Marte this spring.
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twisted
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #5 on:
April 11, 2008, 05:36:42 PM »
Quote from: tribemuck on April 11, 2008, 05:18:31 PM
The Blake/Marte switch could be interesting, although I was really unimpressed with Marte this spring.
However are you impressed with the situation now? I dont think ben is ready at least mix it up with what we have up here already...
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Ohio_Fireman
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #6 on:
April 11, 2008, 05:38:58 PM »
so your whole post was about Marte not getting at bats?
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tribemuck
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #7 on:
April 11, 2008, 05:42:15 PM »
Quote from: twisted on April 11, 2008, 05:36:42 PM
However are you impressed with the situation now? I dont think ben is ready at least mix it up with what we have up here already...
I can't say I'm really anymore impressed now, than I was then. But, the Indians need something to put some spark and at the same time some stability to their lineup. I'd rather them doing some experimentation now than later in the season.
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twisted
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #8 on:
April 11, 2008, 05:50:08 PM »
My point exactly still early they arent producing something needs to be done!
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Ohio_Fireman
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #9 on:
April 11, 2008, 07:56:47 PM »
I agree with you here. Delluci has never been anyhting more than a scrub and never will be. He needs to go!! like now!
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twisted
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #10 on:
April 11, 2008, 08:02:34 PM »
Quote from: Ohio_Fireman on April 11, 2008, 07:56:47 PM
I agree with you here. Delluci has never been anyhting more than a scrub and never will be. He needs to go!! like now!
I think thats a first! lol It just scares me to bring Ben up now when he is dead down there... But I really think the shifting things up with Marte to 3rd and Blake to the OF could help us a little more for now!
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Ohio_Fireman
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #11 on:
April 11, 2008, 08:06:44 PM »
thats probably the best bet, DD and Jmike both need to go!
Choo Sizemore Guty and Ben as the 4th is the way to go!
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twisted
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #12 on:
April 11, 2008, 08:17:31 PM »
I think once Choo gets back and Ben heats up thats what we will see
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Nate
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Re: Clevelands Sad Truth
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Reply #13 on:
April 12, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
The main reason Francisco didn't make the team out of spring this is due to the money Shapiro guaranteed Michallucci.
Jason Michaels is owed 2.2 million this year with a club option of 2.6 next year.
David Dellucci is owed 3.5 million both this year and next year.
Both of these guys have been playing a lot recently. Part of it is because Franklin had been struggling. The other is I have to believe that they want to play these guys so they can trade them for something. Unfortunately that isn't working out.
Between the two players we have 9.2 million of guaranteed money committed to LF. I'm pretty certain that Dolan just isn't going to let Wedge and Shapiro throw that away.
If there is one complaint I have with Shapiro, and I've said this before, is that he gives these long idiotic contracts to mediocre players that ends up killing our ability to play younger, better and cheaper talent. We've now seen it with Gutierrez (the 2nd baseman...his first name escapes me right now), Boone, Michaels and Dellucci.
It is fact that the only reason Grady got the chance he got was because Juan Gonzalez hurt himself in game one of his return a few years ago.
It is fact that Ben Francisco is being held back by the Michallucci combo.
I liked the Byrd signing and still do. He may have just lost all it together after last year. That happens to players at times. But Michaels, Dellucci, Boone, and Gutierrez were never anything special prior to them getting long contracts with the Tribe. If Byrd doesn't figure it out soon I think he could be put on the DL or demoted to the bullpen. He has been horrible and if he can't locate his pitches he's just going to continue to pitch batting practice like he has been.
I also like that we signed Casey Blake. He can play anywhere and will play anywhere. A lot of people hate Blake and I never really understood it. They bitch that his numbers with RISP are low and that he faulters in the clutch. RISP isn't always a "clutch" situation. Casey Blake has had as many game winning hits or big hits as I can remember of almost anyone on this team right now. Blake has helped this team his entire tenure as an Indians and I think it's sad that people crucify him like they do. I know not many people on this board Blake bash, but a lot of Indians fans do.
Now, Shapiro, Wedge and Dolan do promote and harvest young talent. They put more work and resources into their minors leagues than almost any other team. However, from fan prespective, it seems to me that Shapiro and/or Wedge is reluctant to play young talent to early because they are so scared of what happened with Brandon Phillips that we continue to get these bad, long contracts for mediocre worthless veterans.
I don't mind the one year deals like we gave Nixon. I really hate the 3 year deals give to players like Boone, Dellucci and Michaels.
There are some very big decisions coming fast. Choo is coming off injury at some point. Francisco could help us soon. Michaels and Dellucci and their 9.2 million of guaranteed money stands in the way.
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