August 20, 2008, 08:47:05 PM
Welcome,
Guest
. Please
login
or
register
.
Did you miss your
activation email?
1 Hour
1 Day
1 Week
1 Month
Forever
Login with username, password and session length
News
:
Indians Top 10 Prospects
-
2008 Schedule
-
25 Man Roster
-
Indians Player Salaries
Home
Forum
Help
Calendar
Gallery
Login
Register
Indians 24/7
>
Forum
>
Indians 24/7 Talk
>
Indians Talk
> Topic:
Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
Pages: [
1
]
Go Down
Print
Author
Topic: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke? (Read 341 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ksow45
Administrator
Reputation: 0
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 1818
KSow45
Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
on:
June 26, 2008, 10:08:58 PM »
Cliff was absolutely filthy tonight. I know that is was a bad offense of the Giants but he has made every team (except Texas) look clueless at the plate. He had 11 strikeouts for crying out loud... with only one walk!!!!
I need to eat my words big time I thought Cliff had thrown his last pitch as an Indian last year and I sincerely thought he would be traded but I can gladly say now I'm glad that I was wrong.
He is now 11-1 with a 2.34 ERA with 90 K's 16 Walks in 103.2 innings of work.
I am posing the question... Is Cliff a late bloomer who realized he's not a 4-5 starter and doesn't want to be one anymore and his hard work has blossomed him into an ace
OR
Is this year a fluke?
My honest opinion I don't know if I can believe he's gonna be an ace. To me it seems like we see a decent pitcher come out and have a great season but this season for Cliff has been nearly flawless so only time will tell if he is a true ace?
What do you guys think?
Logged
I changed the name of my username b/c I'm afraid it was jinxing the real Jeremy Sowers so I'm trying this out for a while and see if his luck can improve.
NewJerseyTribeFan
Starter
Reputation: 4
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 433
"It's that 10th man on the field" -Kenny Lofton
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #1 on:
June 27, 2008, 05:29:42 AM »
Fluke! Dont get me wrong, Im loving watching him totally dominate, but how much longer will it last? We will see where that ERA is at at the end of the season. He will at most be a 3 man in the future, especially if we can find a way to keep CC.
Logged
Haftime48
Rookie
Reputation: 2
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 69
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #2 on:
June 27, 2008, 11:37:26 AM »
considering the kind of year Lee had last year I wonder also if it is a fluke. I guess anything is possible. If CC goes he will be a number one man next year just b/c of what he is doing this year.
Logged
Tribe fan till death
ONE THROUGH NINE
NewJerseyTribeFan
Starter
Reputation: 4
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 433
"It's that 10th man on the field" -Kenny Lofton
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #3 on:
June 27, 2008, 01:05:39 PM »
Pfff no. Even if he ended the year with the ERA he has now and say a 18-4 record he wouldnt be the ace. As of now all signs point towards Carmona being our ace next year unless CC stays.
Logged
Ksow45
Administrator
Reputation: 0
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 1818
KSow45
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #4 on:
June 27, 2008, 01:17:29 PM »
I personally think Jeremy Sowers should be the ace if CC leaves ... but that's just me (a tad of sarcasm)
Logged
I changed the name of my username b/c I'm afraid it was jinxing the real Jeremy Sowers so I'm trying this out for a while and see if his luck can improve.
Haftime48
Rookie
Reputation: 2
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 69
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #5 on:
June 27, 2008, 01:27:07 PM »
Quote from: NewJerseyTribeFan on June 27, 2008, 01:05:39 PM
Pfff no. Even if he ended the year with the ERA he has now and say a 18-4 record he wouldnt be the ace. As of now all signs point towards Carmona being our ace next year unless CC stays.
If Carmona was healthy this season he would be an ace, but no one even knows when he is coming back.
Logged
Tribe fan till death
ONE THROUGH NINE
Nate
Administrator
Reputation: 11
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2215
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #6 on:
June 27, 2008, 03:02:22 PM »
I don't know if it's a fluke. Lee came into the season with something to prove and he put a lot of work in. The issue is, even in his good years he wasn't near this good. Add to that the absolute horrible year he had last year. I think Lee is a good pitcher but i don't know if I'd expect this kind of year after this year.
I wouldn't classify Lee and ace yet. #2, #3 starter yes. Now if he does this again next year he'll be an ace. It's just hard to say ace after what happened last year.
Logged
CaptainD
Starter
Reputation: 5
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 341
For love of America
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #7 on:
July 01, 2008, 11:18:05 AM »
It's really just a question of rhetorics and symantics anyway. "Ace" meaning the guy in the #1 hole; who really cares? If the 2, 3, 4, and 5 holes suck, your ace is nothing but an ace of a lousy pitching staff, and you're going to have a crappy season.
Whether Lee starts in #1 or #5 will have little bearing on the way next year goes. What will matter is whether or not he performs as well next year as he has so far this. Too much emphasis is put on this "Ace" stuff these days. The entire pitching staff needs to be looked at as a whole, not individual pitchers treated like they are the fate of the season lies in their hands alone.
That said, I don't think Lee's performance this year is a fluke, and I have a lot of reasons for saying that. First and foremost, if you look at video of his delivery frame by frame (which I have done) you notice some major changes between last year and this, and it is probably related to the work he did in the minors, which included a VERY heavy dose of developmental rehab after that abdomenal problem he had. His mechanics now include a longer stride (8-10 inches, indicating better leg flexibility), better post-delivery position (which indicates improved balance), a higher kick (also indicative of better flexibility, balance, and core strength) and he also works much faster than he used to (ten seconds faster on average between pitches this year vs. last). This last point should not be overlooked. It means that he is not only in better physical shape, but that his total core strength is better. One of the developmental problems a lot of pitches face in terms of conditioning is getting the small muscles that decelerate your arm after delivery to be as strong as the big muscles that accelerate your arm during delivery. The latter give you raw power but the former give you control and also prevent injury, and if they are conditioned properly, greatly add to your stamina and improve the speed at which you work; each pitch does not take as great a toll on your joints. This is something I have struggled with. I can throw 90mph, but I have no control at that speed, and it hurts like hell. This is mostly because of muscle imbalance.
In the minors and during the offseason Lee was on a very good conditioning program with some of the best pitching mechanics coaches around. He worked very hard at his physical conditioning and also made mechanic changes to his delivery, which requires swallowing some pride and taking instruction (something a lot of pro pitchers don't do very well). He is now reaping the benefits of hard conditioning and good coaching.
He's going to have good days and bad days like any pitcher. But to call this year a fluke after he's had as many starts as he's had is far-fetched in light of the very quantifiable and measurable changes he's made to his delivery, and in light of knowing what kind of conditioning he did in the minors and offseason. If he keeps doing what he's doing his ERA will probably stabilize in the 2.0-3.0 range (we all knew it couldn't stay at 1 indefinitely) for the balance of his career, with some seasons better and some worse.
But if you just watch his mechanics - there is nothing wrong. There are no problems. His pitch placement is excellent; he's putting the ball in the zone on the corners when he needs to and making the tough pitches regularly. That doesn't happen by accident.
So I say, Ace Shmace. Who cares about the Ace? If everyone isn't on their game next year, does it really matter? I expect Cliff to perform next year much as he did this, unless he gets hurt or out of shape in the off season. And these things can happen, but hopefully won't. Carmona will be good, the big questions are about the rest of the staff, and if they can't deliver the goods, we're going to be in a worse way next year than we have been so far this, because the only thing keeping us out of last place is our pitching.
Logged
Remember the fallen - Airborne, All the Way
TruBuckeye22
Rookie
Reputation: 2
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 67
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #8 on:
July 01, 2008, 02:50:14 PM »
I would guess that Cliff Lee is somewhere in between what we did last year and what he is doing this year. he is going to be a solid pitcher that hopefully gives the Indians a chance to compete (along with Carmona and Laffey) after CC is gone.
Logged
Please win one before I die
Ksow45
Administrator
Reputation: 0
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 1818
KSow45
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #9 on:
July 01, 2008, 10:14:47 PM »
An Ace isn't a position in the rotation its going out there every 5 days and pitching like he did... ending loosing streaks like he's done this year and give your team a chance to win.... I meant it like that
You can have multiple aces like we did last year in CC and Carmona.... Arizona with Dan Haren and Brandon Webb.... or Cincy with Aaron Harang and Edison Volquez
So I didn't mean this a position in the rotation but the way he pitches
Logged
I changed the name of my username b/c I'm afraid it was jinxing the real Jeremy Sowers so I'm trying this out for a while and see if his luck can improve.
Nate
Administrator
Reputation: 11
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2215
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #10 on:
July 02, 2008, 08:29:44 PM »
Well....Lee has really figured out how to pitch this year. He has great mechanics, he has command of his pitches and he's got the attitude. We may be able to expect this from him from here on out.
Thing is, he's a free agent after next season and if he has another year close to this he's going to get BIG MONEY. We probably won't give it to him. Although we may need to consider it as long he doesn't want 7 years. He'll be 31 next year so he may only want 3 or 4 years. He doesn't have half the mileage on his arm that CC does.
Logged
TruBuckeye22
Rookie
Reputation: 2
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 67
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #11 on:
July 04, 2008, 05:10:06 PM »
Quote from: Nate on July 02, 2008, 08:29:44 PM
Well....Lee has really figured out how to pitch this year. He has great mechanics, he has command of his pitches and he's got the attitude. We may be able to expect this from him from here on out.
Thing is, he's a free agent after next season and if he has another year close to this he's going to get BIG MONEY. We probably won't give it to him. Although we may need to consider it as long he doesn't want 7 years. He'll be 31 next year so he may only want 3 or 4 years. He doesn't have half the mileage on his arm that CC does.
the Indians do have a team option on Lee for 2010 for 8 million.
Logged
Please win one before I die
Nate
Administrator
Reputation: 11
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 2215
Re: Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
«
Reply #12 on:
July 05, 2008, 10:45:05 AM »
Forgot about that. That's good news.
Logged
Pages: [
1
]
Go Up
Print
Indians 24/7
>
Forum
>
Indians 24/7 Talk
>
Indians Talk
> Topic:
Is He An Ace? Or Is This Year A Fluke?
Jump to:
Please select a destination:
-----------------------------
Indians 24/7 Talk
-----------------------------
=> Indians Talk
===> Cleveland Indians Rumors
=> Game Threads
=> The Farm
===> AAA
===> AA
===> A Ball and Rookie League
=> MLB Talk
=> The Pub
===> The Market
-----------------------------
Administration and Support
-----------------------------
=> Announcements and Member Feed Back
===> Forum Rules and Addendums
Grady Sizemore
-
Cliff Lee
-
Fausto Carmona
-
Jeremy Sowers
Loading...