Indians 24/7 - More CC Speculation

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More CC Speculation

« on: June 18, 2008, 03:00:26 PM »

From MLBTR.com

Paul Hoynes of the Cleveland Plain Dealer weighs in on the different teams that could land CC Sabathia.

* Yankees: Despite Ken Davidoff's report yesterday that the Yankees would not land Sabathia, Hoynes notes that the Yankees are desperate for an ace but acknowledges that they may wait until the off-season.
* Phillies: Hoynes points out that Sabathia's first big league manager was Charlie Manuel, but the Phillies may not have enough in the system.
* Cubs: Hoynes feels that Lou PIniella would trade for Sabathia right now if he could.
* Red Sox: Hoynes feels the Sox are more likely to wait until the off-season.
* Rays: Hoynes notes that the Rays have the pieces in the farm system to land Sabathia, but wonders if they are willing to rent a player for a playoff push.
* Angels: Hoynes points out that Sabathia is from the west coast and the Angels may have a better chance of resigning him.

Hoynes also talked to scouts about what the Indians can expect to receive if they do decide to trade the free agent-to-be.

One scout said that "they could get two young players that were at or close to the big-league level that they could control for a while" while a second scout speculates the bounty could be " two and three prospects, depending on whether that team could sign Sabathia to an extension before he becomes a free agent this winter."


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Ksow45

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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2008, 03:17:08 PM »

If trading CC became necessary which right now is not something Mark Shapiro should consider considering we have played better these past couple of series so I do sense we have improved and we should definitely wait until Fausto comes back and is at full health b/c you never know.

There are a couples team's farm systems I like. I would definitley like to get into the Rays. I imagine David Price is untouchable but they have some nice players in there. Speedy CF Desmond Jennings who stole 45 bases in 99 games last year would be nice... power hitting Reid Brignac who plays SS and is already in AAA. Jacob Mcgee who is 6-3 with a 3.81 ERA is in AA is another good one.

I do not like the Yankee's system... its good but I think its a little overated and they overate their players quite a bit, Cubs a little bit of the same Felix Pie has been there top prospect for awhile now with nothing to show except decent minor league numbers and even when it looks like they developed a nice player like Rich Hill he flops and is sent back to the minors. Phillies have nothing and Boston and LA Angels are so stingy they'll just jerk us around for months until its too late and then they'll go "Well the Indians weren't being reasonable they wanted 2 good players with high upside for arguably the most dominating pitcher in the game.

I remember reading elsewhere that Texas is a dark horse for Sabathia... they want to get a situation where they can sign him and prepare for their future. They have a great system with players like Julio Borbon, Blake Beaven, Matt Harrison, Max Ramirez, Chris Davis, Taylor Teagarden, Joakim Arias, Neil Ramirez, John Mabry, or Elvis Andrus. They deffinitley have the goods.


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Nate

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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2008, 04:59:38 PM »

The Rangers seems like a decent option. Good farm system and if they can get a top notch pitcher, they could run at the division.

We're not ready to sell yet I suspect. We're only 6.5 out. However, we have to make a run now to get close. If we're not within 4 come mid July, we may need to consider selling.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2008, 08:24:19 PM »

If the tribe were to trade with the Rangers it would be for a power hitter, it seems like the Rangers are just breeding them out there. I think after awhile the team will get back to what they use to be. For right now the team has like 3 maybe 4 consistant hitters and eventually they fizzle out. We need a power hitter to come in here and add to the power.

It looks like Hafner isn't coming back this season

When Vic comes back he won't be able to change much about the team

and IDK Faustomight come back in late July who even knows

The fact is not many players come back from a long DL string and do their job like they should. It seems like this team is just playing in the dark, no one knows what will happen.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2008, 10:47:54 PM »

Quote from: Nate on June 18, 2008, 04:59:38 PM

Well, as of tonight we're 8.5 out, and that after interleague play against one of the teams that has the worst record in the NL. The fat lady has not sung, but she's moved from the dressing room to the wings; the audience is holding their breath, just waiting for her to come out and sing.

I still say where we are at the all star break will probably determine whether we have a shot or not. If we're more than 10.5 GB at the break, for all practical intents and purposes, we'll be hopelessly stuck in the basement - we'd have to play better than .700 through the rest of the season to have a reasonable expectation of winning the division or getting the wildcard. Even when the Tribe is totally healthy that's a mighty tall order. It's possible, but the probability goes down seemingly with every series. Colorado should have been at least 2 wins. If we can't eke out 1 win against Colorado, how can we expect to beat the Sox (both colors), the Rays, the Angels?

My guess is that we'll be around 11 games back at the break, with no reason to think that our performance will suddenly improve after, I think we're not talking if we sell, but who, how soon, and for how much.

Hate to say it, but that's how I see it. angry

Shouldn't have gone this way, we have way too much talent to be finishing 3rd or 4th in the division, but it could easily come to fighting for second last place if things don't take a HUGE upswing really soon.


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Nate

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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2008, 05:51:16 PM »

I think we'll be selling at the deadline. This team probably won't make the playoffs.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2008, 07:24:54 PM »

I would say if white sox stay hot until the allstar game, then yeah I think the team will trade some players. The thing is white sox can so easily go back on a losing streak. Of course the longer it takes for this team to figure out what player goes in what role they will continue to play poorly.

I really think one person that should be traded is Jhonny P he is NOT a shortstop and no one in the Indians organization wants to face this fact. He is a good power hitter and could play better at a different position. I think this team has waited too long for their "wait and see" theory. Jhonny P use to be a great consistant hitter, I beleive it was two or three years ago before he had his eye operation when he had his good seasons. I think when ACab comes back he needs to go in the SS position. b/c right now I cringe when a ball is hit to the left side of the infield b/c Jhonny P and Blake have screwed up alot of plays. Carrol has been pulling his weight on second base.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2008, 03:10:34 PM »

From Paul Heyman...

? The Indians have begun scouting the Yankees' system to see if they can find anything to interest them in case they decide to trade C.C. Sabathia. They have told teams they have to get better than the two draft choices they'd get if Sabathia left as a free agent. Sabathia, who's likely just a rental pitcher (though a great one), is believed to be interested in a "Johan Santana contract.'' Good luck there. Sabathia's a nice kid and he's lefthanded, but he should get into Johan Santana shape before anyone agrees to give him six years. The Dodgers, Red Sox, Phillies and Cubs also are believed to be interested

Nothing new really


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NewJerseyTribeFan

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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2008, 04:03:44 PM »

If we trade him away to the Yanks Im going to die.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2008, 06:15:23 PM »

Yeah, I dont want him to get traded to the evil empire


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 10:02:30 AM »

A little bit of good news I guess...

PITTSBURGH -- C.C. Sabathia would be preferable to Sidney Ponson. But Sabathia isn't available yet, so Ponson will start for the Yankees in the second game of tomorrow's Subway Series split doubleheader.

According to a major-league executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was discussing a player not on his team, the Cleveland Indians are making a last-ditch attempt to sign ace Sabathia to a contract extension before trading him.

There are major obstacles to signing Sabathia. Negotiations halted in spring training, and Sabathia has said he does not want to work on a deal during the season. And the smaller-market Indians are not interested in matching Johan Santana's $137.5 million, six-year contract with the Mets.

According to the executive, word was the Indians -- who have fallen out of contention in part because of a flurry of injuries -- were dead-set on trading Sabathia a few weeks ago before deciding to attempt to sign him.

Sabathia, last year's AL Cy Young Award winner, is eligible for free agency after the season, and given the Yankees rotation issues, they would seem to be among the top suitors in trade talks. Sabathia is 5-8 with a 4.06 ERA this year, but in his past nine starts he has gone 4-3 with a 2.12 ERA and 70 strikeouts in 68 innings.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2008, 06:43:22 PM »

Interesting. I wonder what changed their mind?

Next years rotation would look good like:

Sabathia
Carmona
Lee
Laffy
Sowers

Jeeze, that would be 4 lefties.


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 01:00:13 PM »

From Jon Heyman's Column

C.C. Sabathia hasn't been the star of this season, but he appears very likely to become the star of this trading season. No less than a dozen teams are believed interested in the Indians' talented and accomplished left-hander. By one accounting, every contending team but the Cardinals already has checked in with Cleveland.

Unless the injury-depleted Indians can quickly turn things around, and assuming the Mariners didn't literally mean it when they suggested everyone's available and will instead keep the great 22-year-old right-hander Felix Hernandez (whose availability would cause competing GMs to swoon), Sabathia should be the most coveted pitcher on the trade market

"He's going to be going somewhere,'' one competing GM predicted about Sabathia.

Though Sabathia is only 5-8 with a 4.06 ERA, he has regained his 2007 Cy Young form and carries a superb 2.14 ERA since April 22. Considering his recent performances and pedigree, he could become one of the most expensive trade-deadline rentals ever.

Indians general manager Mark Shapiro said by phone that there's "no timetable'' set to decide whether to trade Sabathia, and that they will continue to gauge their alternatives. "We are obviously preparing for the possibility (of trading Sabathia),'' Shapiro said. "Hopefully, this team will turn it round. But if not, we'll be prepared to make deals. I can't tell you when that will be.''

The hobbled Indians are tied for last with the Royals in the AL Central (surprising to me, at least, as I picked them to win the World Series). Their Sabathia decision will depend on their recuperative powers, both on the field and in the trainers' room.

The very same Indians regime that once turned Bartolo Colon into a bonanza by sending him to Montreal for its three most coveted prospects -- Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee and Brandon Phillips -- would like to come as close as possible to matching that haul. However, that was an unusual circumstance, as then-Expos GM Omar Minaya believed his team was on the verge of contracting at the time, giving him extra incentive to play for the present. Indians people have to realize they may not be quite that fortunate this time, especially with top prospects valued higher than ever by everyone.

While the competition should still be fierce for Sabathia, his status as a free-agent-to-be and probable three-month rental should inhibit his value somewhat.

Furthermore, a quickly-signed contract for either the Indians or someone else seems unlikely. Sabathia is believed to be seeking Johan Santana money ($137.5 million), or at the very least, Barry Zito money ($126 million), and it's difficult to envision him offering discounts on the precipice of free agency. One person who knows Sabathia said ultimately he didn't see the pitcher chasing every last dollar as a free agent and suggested he couldn't envision the Bay Area native signing long-term in New York (the Yankees, with a definite need, have been viewed as a favorite).

Competing GMs doubt the savvy Shapiro will provide acquiring teams a three-day window to lock up Sabathia, anyway. As one GM said, "Too many things can go wrong.''

The Indians have begun scouting competing teams' systems to see who's best prepared to deal for Sabathia. Among the most interested teams, it is believed the Brewers, Rays and Dodgers may be best-equipped to trade prospects, while the Phillies, Cubs and Astros ("they have nothing,'' one GM said) may be least-equipped.

However, as was the case in the Colon deal, an interested team's tolerance to surrender prospects may weigh heavily. The Cubs, who may be sold soon, could be seen as having a greater willingness to go for it. Plus, the fact they are in their 100th anniversary season of no World Series titles may even provide an extra little push.

The AL East-contending Yankees, Rays and Red Sox all are expected to be in the mix, though the Yankees' need is clearly much greater than that of the other two teams (for instance, Dan Giese and Sidney Ponson are starting the Subway Series-opening double header for them today). And despite injuries to Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy, the Yankees' system is better than most believe; they would have the pieces to pull it off. One pitching prospect who's emerged is right-hander Alfredo Aceves, a $400,000 pickup from the Mexican League who is wowing them at Double-A Trenton with pinpoint control and a 1.80 ERA. The Yankees, though, say they won't consider trading second baseman Robinson Cano, one young player who'd surely interest the Indians.

The Indians reportedly will make a last-ditch effort to sign Sabathia. But considering Cleveland's unwritten code not to dedicate a an exorbitant portion of their payroll to any one player, nobody believes their chances to keep him long-term are anything better than a long shot.

The Indians last winter offered a four-year deal for about $68 million, and folks familiar with their workings envision them proposing no better than a fifth-year vesting option for a pitcher, even one they love such as Sabathia.

Historically, the Indians have adhered closely to guidelines suggesting it's unwise to devote a high percentage of their payroll to one player, and internally, have often cited that history, which says that no team devoting as much as 22 percent of its payroll to one player has ever won the World Series, and only one (the 2002 Giants, with Barry Bonds) even made the Series.


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NewJerseyTribeFan

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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2008, 01:09:53 PM »

Okay, so were going to trade him to the Expos?


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Re: More CC Speculation

« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2008, 01:12:12 PM »

More from Ken Rosenthal... Gives us a little more info on who might be available to us if we decide to trade CC

The Brew Crew's special mix

The Brewers' acquisition of reliever Scott Linebrink before last year's non-waiver deadline offered a glimpse of their strategy in trading for a potential free agent ? one they could reprise in their quest to land Indians left-hander C.C. Sabathia.

For two months of Linebrink, the Brewers sent the Padres three minor-league pitchers ? lefty Joe Thatcher, whom they had signed as an undrafted free agent; righty Will Inman, a former third-round pick; and lefty Steve Garrison, a former 10th-rounder.

Linebrink didn't get the Brewers to the postseason, but Milwaukee received two compensation picks when he signed with the Chicago White Sox as a free agent. Those picks proved to be the 35th and 54th selections in this year's draft ? far higher than where the Brewers had initially selected Inman and Garrison.

The loss of reliever Francisco Cordero as a free agent yielded two more premium picks, giving Milwaukee six of the first 62 choices. The Brewers could end up with a similar windfall next year if they acquire Sabathia, then lose both him and right-hander Ben Sheets in free agency. Yes, their rotation would suffer, but the team will be getting back righty Yovani Gollardo, who is out for the season after undergoing knee surgery.

Make no mistake: Major-league teams exist to win World Series, not collect draft picks. Still, the Brewers are so good at drafting and developing, they can have it both ways.

Their Class AA team is deep in position prospects, giving them the potential to acquire a pitcher such as Sabathia to pair with Sheets for a postseason push. And the extra picks would enable them to keep reloading under their gifted scouting director, Jack Zduriencik.

The Rays may not be afraid to trade for C.C. (Tony Dejak / Associated Press)

The Brewers will not necessarily land Sabathia; teams such as the Rays and Red Sox also are deep in prospects, and the Yankees could be motivated by an additional incentive.

Any team that acquires Sabathia would gain an exclusive window to sign him long-term before he reached free agency.

And the Rays?

The Rays aren't afraid to trade elite young players in the right deal ? they proved that last offseason by sending outfielder Delmon Young to the Twins in a package that brought them right-hander Matt Garza and shortstop Jason Bartlett.

In fact, the Rays could emerge as the front-runners for Sabathia if the Cubs are unable to satisfy the Indians and the Yankees and Red Sox are unwilling to part with the necessary prospects. Not even the Brewers boast as strong a farm system as the Rays.

Like the Brewers, the Rays would be content with draft picks if they lost Sabathia as a free agent, provided the initial price wasn't too high. Young players, while overvalued in the current marketplace, are more valuable to the Rays and Brewers than they are to the Yankees and Red Sox.

Thus, the Rays will not get emotional in their pursuit of Sabathia. They'll simply pass if the Yankees or Cubs panic and make an outrageous offer.

The Yankees' system: Mixed reviews

Rival scouts and executives are somewhat divided over the quality of the Yankees' farm system, which ranked fifth in the 2008 Baseball America organization rankings.

Critics, pointing to the stalled developments of pitchers such as Ian Kennedy and Jeff Marquez, say the Yankees overrate their prospects, something to which practically every organization could plead guilty.

"I've seen a lot of guys who will play in the big leagues and pitch in the big leagues," says one rival scout who is assigned to the Yankees' system. "But I haven't seen an impact player."

The Yankees, however, possess so many highly regarded young arms, some are bound to succeed. What's more, they might need to deal only one top young player ? say, right-hander Phil Hughes ? if the Indians value quality over quantity in a Sabathia trade.

Another area of depth for the Yankees is center field; Melky Cabrera, 23, is in the majors; Brett Gardner, 24, is at Class AAA; Austin Jackson, 21 at Class AA.

Gardner an 80 runner on the 20-to-80 scouting scale, is a Juan Pierre/Brett Butler type, only he draws more walks than Pierre. Some scouts question whether he will hit, but at worst he should become a good extra outfielder.

Jackson has perhaps the highest upside of any position player in the Yankees' organization.


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